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"The Army is regarded as one of the most transformative institutions in shaping individuals into extraordinary leaders and citizens," Lt Gen (Retd) Yogesh Kumar Joshi says in response to a question about whether mandatory military training for all citizens would be a good idea for India. "The training in the Army goes beyond combat skills. It instills values, traits that last a lifetime, discipline, the importance of punctuality, adherence to rules and regulations. It also makes you resilient," Lt Gen Joshi adds.
Penguin Veer had brought out Lt Gen Joshi's memoir 'Who Dares Wins: A Soldier's Memoir' earlier this year. Our conversation over Zoom, starts from the memoir but then goes on to other aspects, like whether India should have mandatory military service for all citizens, and what guardrails India should put in place for a contingency—even war—in the era of widespread social media use.
Social media can be a dangerous thing in war time, says Lt Gen Joshi. Not only can users inadvertently release some information through their posts and photos, the threat of deepfake videos spreading rumours and bringing down soldier morale is very real too. "Targeting the brain... instead of using a warhead, you target the forehead of the individual. This narrative building, it can be weaponized," says Lt Gen Joshi.
Of course, a portion of Lt Gen Joshi's memoir deals with the Kargil War, the first televised India-Pakistan war. Several photos in the centre of the book show officers stationed in Jammu and Kashmir before the fighting, and soon after the battles. On one page, we see officers enjoying a drink at what looks like an Army Mess in Sopore. A time stamp at the bottom right reads 4 4 '99. April 4, 1999. Weeks before the Kargil War. The second image on this page is of 13 JAK Rifles officers "on top of Point 5140". There's no time stamp in this one, but we know that India recaptured this position on June 20, 1999.
In June 1999, Lt Gen Joshi—then newly promoted to Lt Colonel—had found himself leading the 13 Jammu and Kashmir (JAK) Rifles battalion up the harsh territory towards Tololing under heavy firing. He had to figure out not just where to position India's Bofors Guns to demolish the advantage of an opponent firing from a higher altitude, but also try multiple ways to destroy the enemy's cover, offered naturally by the terrain, as Indian troops advanced up to Point 5140. This was no mean task, as even heat-seeking missiles were having trouble finding their mark in this rocky and difficult geography.
By the end of the two months, three weeks and two days of the 1999 war, 13 JAK Rifles had lost dozens of soldiers. War heroes like Captain Vikram Batra and Rifleman Sanjay Kumar died on that battlefield, and became part of legend. The battalion would also go on to win "a total of 37 awards, two Param Vir Chakras (PVCs), eight Vir Chakras, 16 Sena Medals and so many others. And we also got the Unit citation, and the title: the Bravest of the Brave, which is given to any unit which has two Param Vir Chakras", and Point 4875 was now called Batratop after PVC Vikram Batra.
Lt Gen Joshi got a Vir Chakra for leading his battalion in four key battles in 1999 at Kargil and Dras.
Nearly 26 years on, memories of the Kargil War and the uphill fighting by Indian Jawans are kept alive. Every year, India observes Kargil Vijay Diwas on July 26, with the programme kicking off at the Kargil War Memorial on the Srinagar-Leh highway. Movies and books, including this memoir, have explored nuances of the war, too. In 2003, Sanjay Dutt played Lt Gen Joshi in LOC: Kargil and Shataf Figar played him in Shershaah in the 2021 film about the late Captain Batra.
Of course, the Kargil War is just part of Lt Gen's Joshi's memoir. His rise from a middle-class family in Pune, the opportunities that the army presented him with and his stint in China are all covered here too. Lt Gen Joshi spoke about these over a video call with Moneycontrol. Edited excerpts:
Your battalion, 13 JAK Rifles, of which Captain Vikram Batra was also a part, played a key role in winning India the Kargil War in 1999. Tell us about some of the customs and practices inside 13 JAK that are specific to you.
It's all about the war cry that we have and the way we wish each other. 13 JAK Rifles has got 100 percent Dogra troops. The way we address each other is 'Jai Mata Di', and the war cry is 'Durge Mata Ki Jai!' That is the custom and tradition which is most important as far as our regiment is concerned.
Tell us about your book. The Kargil War was fought from May-July 1999. What inspired you to write 'Who Dares Wins' nearly 26 years on?
This is my memoir, and this was long overdue. While I have covered a couple of chapters of the Kargil War, what my battalion did, mostly it is my complete memoir.
It was long overdue in the sense that having commanded the battalion (13 Jammu and Kashmir Rifles) during the Kargil War, and the battalion having done extremely well—it captured two strategically important features in Dras and the Mushkoh Valley, that is Point 5140 and Point 4875 which is now known as Batratop—we got a total of 37 awards: two Param Vir Chakras, eight Vir Chakras, 16 Sena Medals and so many others. And we also got the chief's citation, and the title of the Bravest of the Brave, which is given to a unit which has two Param Vir Chakras. And, of course, we had a very unique distinction of getting two Param Vir chakras in one operation (Operation Vijay, for which Captain Vikram Batra and Rifleman Sanjay Kumar were awarded the Param Vir Chakra, the highest military honour in the country). The book is a tribute to my battalion, 13 JAK Rifles. It is a tribute to all the officers, JCOs and Jawans of my battalion, with whom I grew up in the battalion, rubbed shoulders with them and learnt so much. And finally of course fought the Kargil War. That was my main aim, actually, of writing this book.
And the second one was also to motivate the youth. When you read the book you'll realize that I come from a very humble background. My father retired from the Railways, and I was brought up among four sisters and we have no army background at all. So if a person like me—from such a humble background; there was a stage when I actually wanted to leave the Academy and come back home because the life was so tough initially for me; so, starting from there, to becoming the Northern Army commander—if I can do it, anybody can do it. This is the lesson that I wanted to bring out for the youth of the nation, to motivate them.
And third thing was that I wanted to apprise the youth of the life in the army. The kind of challenges that gives, the adventures, the exposure it gives you. One gets to travel all over the world. I travelled to Beijing, China, did two tenures abroad and of course within the country, from the Himalaya to the deserts, to the North-East, everywhere. Of course, challenges are there, but the army life, you know, gives you a really good life. So that was the aim of writing this book.
Tell us about the title - Who Dares Wins.
It again is a message to the youth that in life, you will get a lot of challenges and there will be failures, you shouldn't get cowed down by failures. You can look at failures in two ways: One is as a lesson, and you take it on from there. And second is, once you get a failure, you just pack up and go home. I wanted to tell them that there will be challenges, there will be failures, but you have to step out, take those risks and you have to dare to win.
People in the armed services are called upon to do high-stakes jobs in so many areas of varying sensitivity that it kind of boggles the mind to think on how much training, and in how many disciplines, you go through over the course of your career. For example, you also speak Mandarin?
In the Army, you're made a Jack of all trades so you're able to handle any situation that comes in the manner it requires to be handled. In the academies, it's a very scientifically planned training. When I went into the Academy, I was 16 years old; I'd just passed my 11th class and joined the Academy. And when I passed out of IMA, I was 20.5 (years old).
You're really young, so the training is very scientifically planned. It starts with physical fitness and drill, then you have leadership training and there's teamwork. So there's structured training and there is a little bit of unstructured training as well.
What happens in these squadrons, along with your appointments in the academies, is that you are also put through difficult situations. Starting with physical training, your drill PT discipline comes in in a very big way. Of course, at a later stage, you have your weapon training. And then in the final term, in both the academies, you have tactical training in how to fight battles and all the drills are taught. Leadership comes in at all levels and working as a team is one of the most important trainings that happens in the academies.
How did they drill these lessons into you, say, with the example of teamwork?
I can bring it up with the battalion. It's very important to understand that nobody cannot be perfect at everything. The catch is to surround yourself with people who can do what you can't do, and then work with (them as) the team. The team leader has to have trust in the team. As a team leader, you train your team, you test them and then leave it to them because as a team leader, you can't get involved in each and every small, small thing; you delegate. And the team also has to have trust in the leader. So, that's how it works. For example, in the battalion, there's somebody who fires the media machine guns, somebody's firing the mortar, somebody's doing the logistics, and they're all experts in their respective fields. And when the whole team combines together, you're able to achieve the results.
This is ingrained in us in training. In the National Defence Academy, you know, each squadron has got three divisions. There are competitions held at within the squadron at the dev level. So (that builds) that bonhomie, that bonding within the division... And then when you rise up higher, there're competitions at this squadron level, then the Academy teams go and participate in competitions. That is how you're brought up to work as a team.
Could you share an exercise that people outside of the Army can perhaps try out in their schools, in their offices to build up that sort of team bonding and trust?
It is important to make teams. Let's say in a class, they can divide it into three teams—A, B and C—and have competitions at that level. And competitions can be so designed that the whole team has to produce the result. It can't be that there's one person in that in that particular team in the class who's doing everything. So, if you structure it in that manner, then automatically one will be able to work as teams.
Countries like Brazil, Russia, Finland, Denmark, North and South Korea, Israel, Ukraine, Iran, Greece, Angola, among others, have varying periods of mandatory military service—mostly for men, but also for women in some countries including Israel, Morocco and Norway. Do you think some we should have something like that in India as well?
I think that'll do a lot of good. The Army is regarded as one of the most transformative institutions in shaping individuals into extraordinary leaders and citizens. The training in the Army goes beyond combat skills. It instills values, traits that last a lifetime, discipline, the importance of punctuality, adherence to rules and regulations. It also makes you resilient; physically and mentally tough. Maybe a year or two years training for everybody in the Army will make good leaders and good citizens, definitely.
Also, the army is equalizer in a lot of ways? You write about your humble background in your memoir. But once you come into the army, whether you come from the north or the south of India, a rich family or a middle-class background, it doesn't matter, right? A life in the Army also, perhaps, gives you a better understanding of India—even remote parts of India—than the average citizen? In one of your previous interviews, you mentioned that the first time you heard of Tololing was when you were going to war there. Dras, Kargil, Tololing, were much less known to the general Indian in the street before the Kargil War, too. Indeed, many of the places where you were posted and which you write about are little-known to us in different parts of our vast country.
You actually learn so much. My first posting was in Nagaland, in 1982. And those days, what we used to hear was (stories of) bows-and-arrows being shot and a lot of insurgencies, and rebels and terrorists and all that. But I got the opportunity to go there and see all those areas, the entire geography.
Ladakh, again, I went for the first time during the Kargil War. So the army really takes you to a lot of places. In the army, we say one look on the ground is better than 10 briefings on the maps. So when you travel to those places, you see it on the ground, it gets embedded in the brain lifelong. That makes a lot of difference.
What stood out to you about Nagaland in the 1980s?
I'm closing my eyes and looking back to when we moved in; the thick jungles there, the difficult terrain, the mountains. When I travelled from Assam and went to Mokokchung where the battalion headquarter was, those are very, very remote areas. And one thing that really surprised me was that in those areas, when I interacted with the locals, there were many people who had not travelled in buses; trains were out of question. That was my initial my impression about Nagaland.
It's interesting that their lack of rail travel experience made an impression on you, given that you had a childhood surrounded by the Railways. Of course, you've written about manning the border with China, including some of the friendlier cross-border exchanges, like when you said hello or Ni Hao to a Chinese soldier in the other side—but coming back to Kargil, because it's such a huge moment in the psyche of the nation, what do you think people need to remember about the war, about the 500-plus officer and Jawans who died in the Kargil War?
26th of July is the day when we celebrate the Kargil Vijay Diwas every year. And this is celebrated in a big way, which is a very good thing. I make it a point to go almost every year. We have made a beautiful War Memorial—everybody should visit the Dras War Memorial, which we have made there for the Kargil martyrs. People should go and see the terrain—how difficult the terrain is in Ladakh and under what circumstances the troops fought against all odds. When you see those mountains, I'm not sure if you've been to Ladakh...
You've explained the geography—the boulders, the altitude, and the hump where the rocky knob used to be—in a video previously...
Yes, it's very, very difficult terrain. And what the Indian Army did was something which was impossible. With the enemy sitting on top, in dominating positions, no cover, limited approaches along which we had to launch assaults. And the enemy also knew that, that the only way (for Indian soldiers) to come is this. (The enemy had) machine guns placed on top, firing at you from that direction. We really had to improvise, innovate and do a lot of on-the-spot, out-of-the-box thinking to succeed in going up these mountains and capturing (those positions).
I want people to go there and see this and pay homage, of course, at the Dras War Memorial. And finally, of course, people should understand that freedom doesn't come easy and they should do their part... they're worth be worthy of the sacrifices the soldiers have made in these difficult areas for them.
You mentioned innovations and on-the-spot, out-of-box thinking. Now, in June 1999, you found yourself leading the 13 Jammu and Kashmir (JAK) Rifles battalion up the harsh territory towards Tololing under heavy firing during the Kargil War. You had to figure out not just where to position India's Bofors Guns to demolish the opponent's advantage but also try multiple ways to destroy their positions as Indian troops advanced up to Point 5140. This was no mean task, as even heat-seeking missiles were having trouble finding their mark in this rocky and difficult geography. Could you give us an example of how you figured things out in this terrain, and what eventually worked?
I can give lots of examples. There, the situation was changing very rapidly in the sense that some areas we were able to move easily, and some areas the enemy was holding very strongly.
Between Tololing and Point 5140, there's a huge feature called the Hump. If you see photographs, it looks plain, but actually the entire feature is full of big, big boulders. And these boulders provided cover to the enemy... (they could) take position behind cover and open fire on the advancing enemy, that is, us at that time.
So we fired rocket launchers because behind these boulders the enemy was sitting with a machine gun, with a sniper, and firing at us. Normally, you fire rocket launchers, explode any tank round and explode the bunker, and then assault into it. But firing the rocket launcher had no effect because the boulder was really very big. So then we innovated immediately—we tried to fire airburst, because the enemy, while he had frontal cover from using these boulders, but he didn't have overhead protection.
So we fired the rocket launchers in airburst mode, so they would explode in the air and cause damage to the enemy, and then we could launch the assault. But then we realized that we were firing uphill. And it's very difficult to judge the distance and where exactly the round should explode. So this also did not succeed.
Then we used anti-tank missiles. Again, because of the high-altitude lack of oxygen, even these missiles got grounded; they didn't succeed.
I even—really out-of-the-box—tried to fire an Igla missile, which is actually an anti-aircraft heat-seeking missile... But that all didn't work.
And finally what worked was the Bofor's gun, and that also (when) firing in the direct role. When you say direct role, it means you're firing the gun like a rifle—straight line of sight—so it has not only the high explosive (power) but also the kinetic energy. After a couple of rounds (of this, we were)... able to destroy that place from where the enemy was firing and then launched the assault.
So continuously innovating, thinking on the spot, finally we succeeded. And there are so many such instances.
The Kargil War happened before the era of social media. We've of course seen wars in other parts of the world since; in Syria, Gaza, Ukraine. What kind of guardrails would you say we need around social media if India goes to war at any time in the future?
During war time, social media can be very dangerous. One is that people who are there in that zone using social media, there can be inadvertent leak of information. You know, you post photographs and you post something of that area, maybe some message which gets trapped. So that definitely has to be avoided.
And second thing is that social media can be used very effectively to build a narrative, to spread rumours. These days, you know, with AI, so many fake videos can be made and that can affect the minds of the soldiers who are fighting at the front. Spreading rumors is very easy. So, targeting the brain... Like we say, from warhead to forehead; instead of using a warhead, you target the forehead of the individual. This narrative building, it can be weaponized. These years, anything can be weaponized. We've seen this in the Russia-Ukraine war. You know, the SWIFT protocols were stopped for transfer of money in Russia. Even the newspaper you read every day, the text can be weaponized to build a narrative. So, social media during war time has to be really managed well and controlled. Otherwise it can do a lot of damage...
During the Kargil war, the media played a very important role. You talked about a televised war wherein what was being done by the soldiers on the border, in the high-altitude areas, in the mountains, where lot of people have still not visited—that was being transmitted into the drawingrooms of the entire nation. During the Kargil War, I used to get a lot of letters from people from all walks of life, from the entire world. You know, principals, students, businessmen, people (saying) that 13 JAK Rifles are so brave. We are so proud of you. You're doing excellent job. I would read these out to my soldiers and put some on the notice board. And it would be a big motivating factor. It appeared that the entire nation was with us. Normally, you know, you feel isolated in those areas sitting on that mountain. You don't know what's happening with the rest of the world. You can't be in touch with the family as well. But when you get such letters, it's a big motivating factor for the entire battalion, for the troops.
Tell us about the China chapter of your career. You learnt Mandarin, which you thought was a difficult language to learn?
It's a very difficult language. You know, it is a tonal language. It's got four tones, and a word in a different tone has a totally different meaning. And then your characters, you know, it's not a normal alphabetic thing. I learnt the language when I was, I think, roughly 40, when I got selected to go as the Defence attaché. And learning a language at that age can be a challenge.
But the motivation was there, because at the end of the language training, you were to going to China, which was a big attraction, going to foreign country and being part of the embassy. And for two years, I really worked very hard.
How many languages do you speak, incidentally?
I got an opportunity to learn two more languages. At the National Defence Academy, we have to learn one foreign language and I had opted for French, but I got Russian. I did my diploma in Russian In India. I was pretty good, of course, but I have not kept in touch subsequently.
Then when I went the UN mission in Angola, we did a crash course in Portuguese because that was the local language that was spoken there on the ground, when you were interacting with the civilians, and for negotiations with the team commander in other team sites. I picked up spoken Portuguese as well.
That is one of the advantages I had in the army: the exposure I got and the opportunity to learn three foreign languages.
(Of the Indian languages, I know) Hindi, English. I speak a little bit of Punjabi.
You've been stationed on the border with China, you've been to Beijing as attaché. Has anything changed in the India-China relationship over these years. There was news in early 2025, of China building a huge Beijing military unit. How likely is it that things between India and China will resolve to a point where we don't have to worry so much about border skirmishes?
Between China (and India), the biggest issue is the border. The boundary question, as we call it. And the huge border which are disputed. So our relationship between India and China revolves, or rather this boundary issue overshadows all other aspects of India, China relationship, whether it is trade, economy, whether it is, you know, looking for influence in South Asia or the Chinese support to Pakistan.
But the boundary issue overshadows everything else... the disputed border and the line of actual control. And we have been having incidents, you know, from 2013, 2014, 2017 (Doklam standoff). But 2020, actually, they mobilised a large amount of force and tried to control areas. Of course, the Indian Army responded, and we went and occupied large number of areas and got them back to the negotiating table. Then we started disengaging from those areas... 21st of October last year (2024) is when, finally, we agreed to disengage from the Depsang and Demchok areas as well, and the normal patrolling has started in these two areas, which was the last hitch.
Of course, with the Prime Minister (Narendra Modi) and Xi Jinping meeting in Kazan (Russia on October 23, 2024), things are sort of coming back to normalcy... but the biggest issue is that because of what they did in 2020, the trust factor between both the countries was lost. And that onus is on China now to bring the trust back. It's going to take time. And till the time the trust comes back, we have to have our guardrails with regard to everything because of what they did in 2020.
The entire nation woke up, in a way, to China. The defence forces are now focusing more towards China. There was (greater) awareness of our dependencies on China with regard to trade; (and the need for) de-risking and decoupling and trying to diversify supply chains, which generally people are not aware of so much, but that the entire nation has woken up to that as well.
In the book, you've also mentioned MoUs for the armies to train together. How effective are some of these steps towards building trust or building some sort of relationship?
These are very important steps. The MoU was signed in 2006 (when I was defence attaché there). Those were times when the international relations were very good; a lot of delegations visiting each other, military delegations visiting, defence minister visiting, army chiefs on both sides. The air chief came, and I accompanied him. So those were good times, actually. And that is the time when the MoU was signed. The biggest thing that happened post the MoU signing was the commencement of the joint exercise between India and China, military-to-military, which was happening (for the first time) after the 1962 war. This was a big step forward—that both the armies would do the exercise aptly named Hand in Hand. First one was held in Kunming in China, second was in India... But post-2020, all this came to a standstill, and now nothing is happening.
Is there a pattern here? Because immediately before Kargil, we could have said that things were very good with Pakistan.
I think that relation is there. So we'll have to keep our guardrails and be alert. Post-Kargil, Pakistan still continues to support cross-border terrorism. We had infiltration in January. So, yes, we have to be alert. That's essentially what it boils down to, that we just need to stay alert. There's nothing else that we can do around this.
You've travelled quite a bit, even to places that very few people get to see. Eastern Ladakh and North Korean capital Pyongyang, for example. What is the most interesting place you've ever been, and why was it interesting to you?
All places were very, very interesting. Pyongyang was interesting because not many people go there. The (Indian) defence attaché in Beijing is concurrently (assigned) to Mongolia and North Korea. I visited Mongolia many times... our exercise with them, called nomadic elephant, is similar to hand in hand with China. Travelling across Mongolia was also very, very interesting. It's exactly like Ladakh, the people are like Ladakhis; (they are largely) Buddhist and there are huge monasteries, which I visited in Mongolia. I used to feel at home in Mongolia. That was very, very interesting.
In Pyongyang... I was able to visit the 38th parallel. The DMZ—Demilitarized Zone—between North and South Korea is the most heavily militarized area of the world. But it was interesting to visit those three blue huts across the 38th parallel wherein the armistice was signed between North and South Korea, between the UN forces actually and North Korea. And the table on which General William Harrison Jr sat and signed the armistice, that table had been preserved. The tattered American flag which they put there. And I got to sit in the chair and take a photograph. That was very interesting.
One very interesting thing was the way the North Koreans have preserved their war memorials and the war museums; they always used to make it a point to take any foreign dignity coming, and very nicely explain in detail how the war was fought between North Korea and South Korea and between the UN forces and North Korea. And that really impressed me; the way they have maintained that.
Sanjay Dutt played you in 'LOC Kargil', and Shataf Figar played your part in the film 'Shershaah'. If a series or film is made on your life, based on your memoir, who would you want playing you in that series or film?
I don't know. In case that ever happens, that would be a great thing, but probably whoever is making it will decide whom to put. My wife keeps talking about maybe Akshay (Kumar) can do a good job.
